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Recitation of Kedushah by Congregation

Regarding the Nusach Sefard weekday kedusha, most of the standard Nusach Sefard siddurim state:

חזן – לְעֻמָּתָם מְשַׁבְּחִים וְאומְרִים:

חזן – וּבְדִבְרֵי קָדְשְׁךָ כָּתוּב לֵאמר:

However, many older and I think also the Chassidish Nusach Sefard siddurim (excluding Nushach ARI) state that it is said by the Chazan AND Kahal. In Boro Park I hear the Kahal also saying it. (In Nusach Ashkenaz I never hear the Kahal saying it)

I assume both are correct. I just want to know which is the Breslov nusach; is it the nusach of Chassidim, and who holds the other nusach?

Kol tuv and Yasher Koach in advance.


Nusach Ashkenaz generally follows the ruling of the Beis Yosef, according to which the mentioned additions are not said by the congregation. The Arizal, however, as cited by the Shulchan Aruch Harav (125), writes that one should say the additions, and this is the common custom among Nusach Sefard (chasidish congregations). I am not familiar with the Breslov nusach, but I imagine that they follow the chasidic custom, whereby the additions are said by the congregation.

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  1. Yasher Koach for your prompt reply!!!

    What confuses me is that Chabad, which davens Nusach ARI, does not add these additions in practice and their siddur lists the additions and says it is said by the Chazan only. The Artscroll siddur and other modern Nusach Sefard siddurim say the same. However, I have seen that older Nusach Sefard siddurim and modern Chassidish siddurim say by these additions, Chazan and Kahal.

    1. I may be wrong, but I believe that in Chabad the extra parts are said by all, with the exception of the initial Nakdishach which is only said by the Chazan.

  2. I’ll check with Chabad, but I have their siddur in front of me and it says “Chazan” by these additions and their siddur is very me’duyik. But, as I wrote before I have seen Nusach Sefard (not Arizal) used by other Chassidic sects where it says “Kahal and Chazan” by these additions.

    1. I once saw a Chabad article that discusses why it says “Chazan” if the custom is for all to say the words. I don’t know the reference now, but Chabad chasidim will surely help you out on this issue.

  3. This is the answer I received from a Chabad Rabbi:

    Although the Shulchan Aruch Harav cites both the Mechaber’s and the Arizal’s customs, he doesn’t conclude by saying which practice should be followed, as he does in other places. In the Tehilat Hashem Siddur which was published under the auspices of the Rebbe, in the weekday Kedushah instructions were printed that those words are recited by the Chazan, and in the Shabbat Kedushah that the congregation recites them followed by the Chazan. Since these instructions were printed in the Siddur published by the Chabad publishing house while the Rebbe was actively the editor in chief, this is the standard practice followed by Chabad Chassidim.

    I can’t help wondering why the Rebbe would choose the Mechaber’s minhag seeing that the Chabad siddur is Nusach ARIZAL.

  4. I received the following answer to the question listed directly above:

    The Chabad Nusach is AL PI – based on – Nusach Ariza”l, but not entirely. This is not the only instance where the Chabad custom is not exactly the same as the Ariza”l.

  5. The opinion of the ARIZAL is also in the Be’er Hataiv.
    באר היטב הלכות תפלה סימן קכה

    (א) שותקין. וגם קדיש א״ל עם החזן. ואפי׳ ללמוד אסור אם לא בשעה שהחזן מנגן בשעת הנגון ולא בשעה שמחתך האותיות. ואינו נקרא קדושה אלא נעריצך וכו׳ לעומתם וכו׳ ובדברי וכו׳ אבל שאר הנוסח שמוסיפין בשבת אינו בכלל קדושה י״נ וע״ל סי׳ ס״ו ס״ק ז׳. והאר״י ז״ל כתב שיאמר כל הקדושה בלחש עם הש״צ. עיין בספר נגיד ומצוה דף צ״ז ע״ב. בשבת אומרים כדבר האמור בקמץ. ס״ח סי׳ תת״ה. ויראה הש״ץ לסיים לעומתם וכו׳ ובדברי וכו׳ קודם שיתחילו הקהל ברוך וימלוך

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